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John Piper | – John Piper and Tim Keller Wrestle with Sanctification

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John Piper
By Desiring God
48 Comments

John Piper and Tim Keller sat down to discuss the biblical vision of sanctification. In this 14-minute video they touch on how justification and sanctification relate, along with the psychological dynamics of faith.

00:20 — How Keller talks about sanctification

2:25 — What are we conforming to in sanctification?

3:45 — How does justification relate to sanctification?

6:40 — The psychological dynamics of faith

9:00 — What does it mean to “owe God everything”?

11:20 — “I’m going to work my tail off for Jesus, and it’s all of grace.”

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Comment (48)

  3. Lost me at "I'm still obligated to obey the law". How on ALL EARTH is it even possible that folks like this can talk about the Gospel and not know the very basics of the Gospel – namely, that the law was fulfilled perfectly in Christ? That is the very heart of the Gospel – all that you could never do was done by Him. Insane.

  4. Jesus was a traveling, preaching EXORCIST (Mark 1:38,39) – not a highly formally trained theologian and synagogue debater. The Pharisees were highly seminary trained analysts and debaters – not successful exorcists…

    They sat around in the synagogues all day, in an endless Royal Rumble of religious opinions, analyzing catechisms and scrupulous questions to the finest minutiae. Meanwhile, Jesus was walking the length and breadth of Israel, releasing people from the oppression of the Devil, by commanding spirits to leave people. And they came out with evidence that was visible, tangible, and undeniable…

    And this same Jesus declared in Matthew 10 that His disciples would become like Him – which is why Paul also spoke of how he demonstrated the Spirit's power, when he was in Corinth (1 Corinthians 2:1,2). Such demonstrations clearly mean authority over spirits.

    And Phillip the deacon also reached the same fullness, by becoming a traveling, preaching exorcist, as shown clearly in Acts 8.

    And the world is overloaded with demonic oppression today, and desperately needs men who have the keys of the kingdom. Millions in North America are diagnosed with severe mental illnesses, for which psychiatry has little control or cure. Because such things are spirits underneath it all. But such deliverers have all but vanished from the earth, and have been replaced with highly seminary trained scholars, analysts, debaters, and Sunday morning 'synagogue' lecturers: Men who are deceived into thinking that covering ground in analyzing is the same as covering ground in fasting, experience and obedience.

    Isaiah 61 boldly declares that true ministry is setting people free; And a significant part of that freedom for many is exorcism. And yet, the Pharisees set no one free in such a way. They could, however, yield a half-informed spiritualized speech at the Sabbath synagogue service…

    So if the two mentioned here, which would these Christian thinkers and analyzers in the video have more in common with – Jesus, or the common Pharisee from Jesus' time..?

  9. Somebody should show King Saul this video. I guess he should have been in Hell this whole time! The interesting part is that he lived a wicked sinful life and went to heaven. "Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines." 1 Samuel 28:19 The Prophet Samuel told Saul he was going to heaven. Why? Because he had saving faith that was imputed at the moment of salvation (see 1Samuel10:6). Sadly that will not phase most people who see this. Hopefully there is someone here or a few maybe who are intellectually honest and will repent of this covert works salvation.

  11. The third use of the law – not found in the Bible. Paul says that those who want to be under the law are obligated to obey the whole law not just part like the 10Cs. Righteousness through behaviour??? "You need the comforts of the gospel in order to fulfil the law." I thought Christ fulfilled the law but then that is not enough for the one who goes back into slavery under the law. Ceremonial law fulfilled in Christ? So, not the moral law then? Christ came not to abolish the law but to fulfil it and he said that nothing could be taken away or changed in the law. He came to fulfil it all not just part of it. By calling the New Covenant new he makes the old one obsolete. Trying to keep the law is an act of the flesh. "Are you so foolish after beginning with the Spirit are you now being perfected by the flesh?" The righteous will live by faith. The law is not of faith. Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the BOOK of the law.

  12. I really like these guys. Intelligent and honest, they do well to unpack this topic of santification I think. I am not a Calvinist by the way. God bless you guys. P.S – I love the idea 'debtor to grace'. Fab

  13. tim says " my motivation(now after becoming a Christian) is not to fear God, but to please Him".

    does God agree with tim?—>

    [Ecc 12:13 KJV] 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

  14. This is annoyingly complicated. I mean come on guys… help me out here. I work with middle school kids at my church and for some of the kids that come in to church for the first time, or have been there for a while, and hear the gospels presented, and react by accepting the gift of grace and believing in Christ. Do I now tell them about this sanctification thing? Or do I wait 10 years when they grow up more and see if they truly follow Christ with their lives to discern if they are truly sanctified? How can we make these parts of the Bible more easy to understand. Or what if a person follows Christ truly, and has real faith, but goes through a rough period in their life and is angry and disobedient to God. Is there salvation no longer anchored because a truly sanctified person wouldn’t at all disobey the lord? How is the heck do we balance the understanding of grace, and holiness? What truth do I tell myself when I make a mistake? Do I say: “it’s okay we all fall short of the glory of God” Or do I say: “How wretched am I, I need to be more holy! I stink! I’m pure evil!” What’s Gods voice like in correction? The only thing I can think of is the chapter in Hosea where God rebukes Israel and through His prophet, describes His grievances with Israel, but then speaks on take her (Israel) back. That to me makes it sound like the balance of grace and holiness/correction is at first wrath/justice/God righteous anger with us and then comes repentance and grace….
    Sorry for my comment being all over the place, I’d love to hear what anyone has to say. Thank you

  17. The protestant difference between righteousness/salvific and by faith alone and santification/good works non salvific is so patently false and antibiblical. As 2 Tim 3:15-16 proves righteousness, good works are necessary for final salvation and this is why we have the Bible. And Jesus rejects sola fide and osas over and over again: Mat 5:20 our personal righteousness must surpass that of the scribes to enter the Kingdom of God and dikaiosune, RIGHTEOUSNESS is good works like alms (Mat 6:1ff). Calvin does not quote Mat 5:20 a single time in his Institutes and he had to leave it outside his Institutes, because Mat 5:20 destroys sola fide and osas.
    Jesus rejects sola fide and osas over and over again

  21. Hebrews 12:4-11 KJVS
    [4] Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. [5] And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: [6] For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. [7] If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? [8] But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. [9] Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? [10] For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. [11] Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

  24. These guys are too smart for me. I'm so grateful for the wisdom of the Ruah in teaching me the simple truths of salvation in YAHAWASHI HAMASHIACH.
    These so called theologians baffle me with all their learning….ALL in an attempt to make a name for themselves an somehow "contribute" to the evolution of "christian thought".
    They are no different from the philosophers Shaul (Paul) encountered at Mars Hill. Ever seeking to learn some "new thing" (Acts 17:21).
    "Third use of the Law"…..really?? What on Elohim's green earth is this hogwash? I've never heard of this before.
    The scripture is clear" 1 Corinthians 3:11
    [11]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."
    The preeminence belongs to The Anointed One, YAHAWASHI Hamashiach. May we relinquish every inclination to somehow add to His Majesty and the beauty of his work in securing for himself a called out, set apart people.
    ALL praises to the Most High YAH!!

  26. In the east it's called theosis and differs somewhat from sanctification. Most protestants don't reach a level of sanctification because there to many preaching once saved always saved. It takes any motivation to increase in one's spiritual life to attain higher heights of christ likeness. In the east we do not believe in working for your salvation nor do we believe in faith alone. We believe salvation is hard work and in order to make a full repentance it takes a life long struggle to work out one's salvation as Paul writes. In working out our salvation or in other words dying to our sinful nature daily, particularly through acsetical struggle fasting, praying, vigils, reading scripture, reading about the church fathers, communion, confession, these are like medicine to the soul that has been stricken by the cancer of sin. It really amazes me when there are sanctified protestants because to attain this with just the Bible and church services and a personal prayer life its like getting only a small dose of medicine and yet somehow it is enough for some spiritual incline. I would say the full dose of medicine is embracing the fullness of the early church and not trying to reinvent the wheel. I respect many protestant teachers. It's just unfortunate many don't truly understand the history of the early church and its early founders. There is a wealth of Christian teaching from these holy men that were some of the first Christians. It would aid the Christian tremendously in their journey to a sanctified life.

  27. Sanctification: ἁγιασμός, οῦ, ὁ hagiasmos: consecration, sanctification: the generic meaning of sanctification is "the state of proper functioning." To sanctify someone or something is to set that person or thing apart for the use intended by its designer. A pen is "sanctified" when used to write. Eyeglasses are "sanctified" when used to improve sight. In the theological sense, things are sanctified when they are used for the purpose God intends. I know there is real debate in regards to the subject. Both John piper and Timothy Keller are incredible men of God. But, I think we've complicated something that God never intended to be complicated. We use such words as progressive sanctification etc. and positionally sanctified. And the tenses in the Greek many times show that we have been sanctified as well as we are being sanctified. In my opinion I do not believe God is speaking out of both sides of his mouth. I think Scripture is sharing with us the miracle new birth of what the gospel declares that we are new creatures in Christ and we have been sanctified set apart for God's intended use called saints. My new identity is my new condition. I might not feel like it and at times I may not act like it but is this does not change what God has done to Christ to me in Him. Practically in other words for my behavior he's asking us to believe that we are new creatures having been sanctified (made holy) becuase of Christ's finished work now our behavior must match. This is done by faith in the power the Holy Spirit allowing Christ to express his life through us with holy behavior. I don't get more holy but my behavior as I understand my new condition and believe it I will act accordingly through him who is our life indwelling in us.. How can God who is holy live in us as the temple if he has not dealt with my sin and has not made us brand-new in Christ? You will live out what you believe. I did nothing to get holy Christ did it all! Now because this is true of my condition I by faith must accept what God has done and now will do in my behavior. If I believe I must try harder or follow even the 10 Commandments to maintain holiness or to get holy or to set myself apart (sanctification) than I do not understand the finish work of Christ. Paul said it this way in Galatians chapter 3:1-4 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the spirit are you now being perfected by the flesh?

    It's hard to believe that God did something so miraculous through his son the Lord Jesus Christ that we would be crucified with him, Co. buried with him and co-resurrected with him to newness of life. But it is true! This is our condition in Christ it's what he has done and only he could do it. My condition in Christ is I have been sanctified so that I walk in newness of life based upon my new condition that is true. Therefore, I can now present my entire life all of me to him that indwells me to exhibit through him in my body a life of holiness. Behavior will be holy, because it is my true condition and I will live out what I truly believe about myself and trust in the truth about who I am in Christ. By understanding it this way I'm not adding or subtracting from Christ finished work. I think the other views give us double mindedness and makes is unstable in all our ways. God called us to live by faith in his performance not mine. Yes we by faith are to put off what does not match up, but this does not make us more holy it confirms what is true of me, otherwise I am never fit to have Jesus living in me.

  28. Wow. Man can really complicate things. Let's keep it simple. Christ was offered to death for our sanctification (Hebrews 10:10 We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Christ Jesus) and he was raised for our justification (Roman's 4:25 He was raised for our justification). It's really that simple. Both have absolutley nothing to do with us, but everything to do with what God did through Christ.

  30. I would love to hear the rest of this! Such great thoughts! Psalm 33:3 “ Sing to Him a new song play skillfully with a shout of joy.” We worship God not out of guilt but out of joy and admiration. Out of thanksgiving and love. Because He deserves the greater glory. Praise be to the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are totally depraved and blind but He opens the eyes of the blind and gives the dead new life. Praise Him everyone!

  34. Lewis Sperry Chafer writes "There is a normal Christian experience. There are new and blessed emotions and desires. Old things do pass away, and behold all things do become new; but
    all such experiences are but secondary evidence, as to the fact of salvation, in that they grow out of that positive repose of faith which is the primary evidence. There is very much Scripture about the results that are sure to appear in a transformed life. True salvation must result in just such realities. It is inconceivable that Christ should come to live in a human heart and its experiences remain unchanged……. The First Epistle of John is full of references to the outward evidence of the inward fact of the newly imparted divine life. This little book, standing near the end of the Bible, may be taken, in one sense, as an examination of the believer…….(however) Such a precious experience as is described by these passages may become clouded by sin or lost in the depression of some physical weakness, and were we depending upon the experience as primary evidence that we are saved, all grounds of assurance would be swept away."

  35. All these guys should simply ignore the Westminster Confession, which isn't scripture, and will thus, naturally, confuse, and dive into 1 Corinthians, where Paul makes it very clear that sanctification is distinct from "salvation by grace through faith". Sanctification is, agreed, part and parcel with faith, you get the whole package with faith, of course, however distinct from faith, as, for example, an unbelieving spouse is "sanctified" by the faithful spouse. They are not saved, for salvation is by grace through faith, but they are sanctified in the context of fruitful relationship in God's eyes to faithful spouse. They are touchable. But once you believe, you are also sanctified. Then and there, regardless of backslidings. Or else Paul, writing to the faithful in 1 Corinthians, and addressing them as sanctified, and then admonishing them for their sins …. wait, are they sinful, or sanctified? Yes sinful, yes sanctified. Therefore sanctification has nothing to do with salvation. It simply means "set apart for Godly purposes and only for Godly purposes".

  43. I love the way he preface his answer as coming from a Presbyterian. Important nuance because they are fundamentally operating from a different perspective of theology. I think it also shows his understanding that there might be some difference.

  48. The change occurs when the Spirit is given to us at Justification and from then on we are to want want seek (Him)Jesus….continuously. My Lord and Savior. Because of what He did for us at the cross. How he rose and ascended to be in us.
    This is what sanctification is in my life. It’s the tearing away from the world and moving into a close relationship which Jesus and His word through the power of the Holy Spirit and by the Grace of the Father.

    There are( I call em side effects) some things I’m learning About Sanctification. Growing pains. But invaluable because of His work in
    us

    I’d say I’ve done a 180 on the internal process that the devil had deceived me for so long but I was regenerated by the power of the Spirit at age 36 was the beginning of the regeneration process. And on my 39 th birthday I was Baptized by my father whom we’d been estranged for 10 yrs.

    The Lor d is faithful and patient.

    Thank you for the Father, for your plan. Your sovereignty, your Spirit, your Son who I love dearly and the ability for me to know you. To have this opportunity occurs only in this life. We must be taught by Him through trusting Him and obeying Him. We are on the journey he has set forth

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